The Cassie Jaye interview: reflections on The Red Pill movie, five years on

Dec 2

The documentary film The Red Pill follows the psychological development of Cassie Jaye, feminist and Hollywood actress, from being initially sceptical about the good intentions of the men’s rights movement, to someone who begins to see through the myths about men’s rights being about misogyny, until eventually she realises that many men are genuinely facing serious problems (e.g. 75% of suicides are male; mental health issues due to child access and family court issues) and need help with them. At the heart of The Red Pill is an important lesson: it is possible for people to increase their empathy for men.

Developing one’s capacity for empathy is an important part of a person’s social and emotional development, and is linked to helping others and having good relationships. Empathy has become a topic relevant to male psychology, with various commentators highlighting everyday examples of a of men receiving less empathy than women, even when they experience the same type of problem. The difference between the degree of empathy for men and women has become known as the ‘empathy gap’.

Experimental research in social psychology since the 1970s has found that people tend to favour other people if they are of the same group identity, but since 2004 we have known that male identity is the exception to this rule. This means both men and women tend to prioritise the needs of women more than men. Note that if the group identity is supporting a specific football team or serving in a particular combat unit, men show the ‘in-group favouritism’ typical of other group identities, but men don’t tend to help other men just because they are men.

There are probably evolutionary reasons for the existence of the gender empathy gap. Warren Farrell proposed the notion of ‘male disposability’. This relates to how it is normal for men more than women to risk their lives to protect the community and to perform dangerous work, and thus it is normal that we sense that men more likely than women to be routinely injured or killed. Thus feeling less empathy for men could be a psychological defence which evolved to protect people against being overloaded with grief for men’s suffering. This evolved tendency might also partly explain the cognitive distortion called gamma bias, the tendency to magnify some gender differences while simultaneously minimising other gender differences e.g. when someone is a victim of violence, their gender is more likely to be highlighted if they are female.

As can be guessed, the gender empathy gap is a problem that effects everyone, psychologists included. In fact this is a very important issue for therapists of all kinds, because empathy for your client is key to developing a good ‘therapeutic alliance’, which in turn has consistently been found to contribute to successful outcomes from therapy. Unfortunately the field of psychology has been slow to take notice of this issue in relation to men, despite calls for it to do so, and despite the development of possible solutions, such as Martin Seager’s ‘Man Talk’ workshop series, which has received little attention.

But there is potentially a barrier intrinsic to addressing this issue: if the empathy gap is an evolved cognitive distortion shared by all people, is there any realistic way we can overcome it? One possible answer is demonstrated to us in The Red Pill, which is a documentary record, and a powerful real-world demonstration, of how the gender empathy gap can be bridged. (Incidentally, the term ‘red pill’ is borrowed from the film The Matrix, and refers to the idea of choosing to swallow a red pill in order to be able to see reality clearly instead of seeing only an illusory version of reality).

Although this film has been written about in the mainstream media in a way that has smeared it in controversy, in my opinion, watching it should be a routine part of the training programmes of clinical psychologists and other therapists, most of whom have little or no realistic training in how do deal specifically with male clients. For this reason, I determined to show it to my colleagues at University College London (UCL), preceded by a short talk about ‘bridging the gender empathy gap’.

December the 8th 2021 is the fifth anniversary of the first showing of The Red Pill at UCL in 2016. The first showing was for staff, students, and the public, co-ordinated with Belinda Brown (then with UCL’s Centre for Transport Studies and the sadly missed Gender Equity Network). Our second showing was for UCL staff and students only, and took place on 5th Jan 2017 as the Male Psychology Network (MPN), as can be seen in the inexpertly-rendered flyer shown here.

Tickets to both events were free. As it turns out, we were to be the first and only [Edit: apart from Plymouth University], university in the UK to show the film, and our December showing was only the third time the film had been seen in the UK. The first showing was met with quite a buzz of excitement, and showed to a full house at the JZ Young lecture theatre.

I talked the other day with two people I first met at the first showing, and both agreed it was an excellent film. Counsellor Phill Turner, who the following year gave a presentation at the Male Psychology Conference at UCL, said it echoed his personal and professional experiences. Rob Walker, currently studying an MSc in psychology, said it had confirmed some of the thoughts he was starting to have on this topic. Rob later became an honorary research assistant with the Male Psychology Network, co-authoring a popular paper in 2020.

Although many of the people who saw the film at UCL were deeply impressed, the film was banned for a time in some cinemas and online platforms. So how much of an impact has the film had? Some people claim that men are privileged, and I have proved that claim to be true because I was very privileged to be granted an interview with the star and director of The Red Pill, Cassie Jaye.

John Barry (JB): I think the film is brilliant and would consider it a success, even if it was banned from some places and probably didn’t get the revenue it deserved. What kind of reception did you expect the Red Pill would receive?

Cassie Jaye (CJ): Actually, overall, I think the film did much better than I expected, but my expectations changed over time. In 2015, when I first announced publicly that I was working on a film about the Mens Rights Movement, I was surprised by the pushback I received from gender rights activists who told me I “shouldn’t give them (Men's Rights Advocates) a platform to speak”. I think that’s when I lowered my expectations on how the film would be received. Then, when I released the film in theaters in 2016, the critic reviews were scathing but audience reviews were glowing. The critic reviews had a wider reach though, so I didn't think the film would go much further.

“It’s become a cult-classic of sorts in the documentary genre and I couldn’t be happier with how far it’s come. I receive emails daily from people telling me the film changed their life for the better… even multiple people have told me that it stopped them from committing suicide”

However, once the film was made available to the public worldwide online in 2017 everything changed. It caught fire word-of-mouth, mainly online, in social media and chat forums, and pretty soon the film was being shared everywhere! It was even translated into dozens of different languages - by people pirating the film of course, but it’s honestly very flattering that people loved it enough to go through all that trouble to pirate and translate the film. In 2017, the more popular it became, the more pushback it received and that’s when the censorship started to happen. Screenings were being scheduled in independent movie theaters and on college campuses and then activist groups were forcing the film to be pulled and banned. It was really remarkable to watch happen since the film itself talks about the unnecessary censorship of these issues being discussed. Now, five years after the film’s release, it is still being watched by new viewers, shared by longtime fans and analyzed by academics. It’s become a cult-classic of sorts in the documentary genre and I couldn’t be happier with how far it’s come. I receive emails daily from people telling me the film changed their life for the better, inspired them to become an activist or a filmmaker, even multiple people have told me that it stopped them from committing suicide, but most people tell me it gave them hope or a new and valuable perspective in some way. It’s really heartwarming and validating to know that my years of hard work has had such a positive ripple effect when at one point I didn’t think anything substantial would come of it.

JB: Despite some negative press, I know the film has made a positive and lasting impact on many people. If the film was shown on public access TV channels (e.g. the BBC in the UK), what kinds of changes do you think it might make to the way people think about gender issues?

CJ: If The Red Pill was broadcast on public access TV stations I think it’d receive a mixture of feedback. I think some career activists that want to suppress this dialogue would make it their mission to protest the TV station and convince them to remove the film from their scheduled programming before it even went to air. However, if the film was successfully broadcast, I think any viewers that would stumble across it would be pleasantly surprised with how much they can relate to the material addressed in the film, and might also be pleasantly surprised with how entertaining and topical this film is.

JB: I gave a short talk before the staff / students viewing of The Red Pill at UCL, saying that the film was an excellent demonstration that the gender empathy gap can be bridged, but also demonstrated that this bridge wasn't created immediately upon being exposed to a few relevant facts. What are your thoughts on the best process for helping people to develop empathy for men’s problems?

CJ: That’s a great point, that the empathy gap isn’t bridged immediately after being exposed to new facts. We live in a world and time where pretty much every demographic has a human rights movement that is given sincere credit and attention, except for the straight white adult male. It’s hard to convince most people today that men deserve empathy. It’s perhaps easier to convince people that sub groups, such as boys, black men, or veterans deserve empathy for their unique issues, but “men” as a whole are not viewed by the masses as a group in trouble, even though plenty of data shows they are faring worse.

“don’t aim to change their mind in one conversation, actually assume you won’t change their mind, but rather just aim to give them food-for-thought by asking them questions they may never have asked themselves before.”

I think conversations about these topics have to be handled with care and sensitivity towards the times we’re living in. The Red Pill was released before the #MeToo and Black Lives Matter movements took off, and also before the pandemic hit, but sadly the issues discussed in the film remain the same, if not worse following these events. I would suggest to anyone who is trying to raise awareness about men’s issues to also be well aware of the other human rights causes out there. Since there’s already a stigma against anyone standing up for “men’s rights” right now, nay-sayers are looking for reasons to discredit male advocates and if that advocate is not aware of the basic talking points and primary issues discussed by other human rights groups, then that male advocate is easily discounted. If you do find yourself debating with someone about the legitimacy of men’s rights, don’t aim to change their mind in one conversation, actually assume you won’t change their mind, but rather just aim to give them food-for-thought by asking them questions they may never have asked themselves before. Just asking them questions can be the catalyst for them to do their own research and perhaps months or years later they will have a better understanding of these issues. I know that feels deflating to hear it could take that long, but it’s because our culture is being bombarded with anti-male propaganda right now and has for years, so change will not happen overnight, but it can happen from careful self-inquiry from curious minds and sincere hearts.

“I wish I could have had a whole chapter talking about how while women may be viewed as sex objects, men are viewed as success objects”.

JB: If you could do the film all over again, would you do anything differently?

CJ: Sure, I’m a perfectionist, I can always find flaws in my work and wonder how I could have done something better, but realistically, no. If a genie could take me back in time to change anything in the film, I don’t think I would because it all had a purpose. Even the imperfect parts of the film had beneficial outcomes. For instance, sure, the audio is rough when Honey Badger Karen Straughan is speaking in the noisy bar, but I much prefer that midnight last minute interview with Karen compared to a so-polished-it-feels-fake-because-it-is interview where Karen would be blasted by bright lights and a dozen crew people would be watching her, making her nervous and stiff. A lot of documentaries these days sacrifice reality for production quality. I prefer documenting real life and asking the audience later to forgive me for rough sound quality or any other production quality issues.

Other than that, I do wish I could have woven some other men’s issues into the edit, namely I wish I could have had a whole chapter talking about how while women may be viewed as sex objects, men are viewed as success objects, and I would give examples seen in movies, music, advertising, the online dating world, etc, and talk about its drawbacks, how it can lead to unfair treatment and even discrimination, as well as it’s biological roots. Since releasing The Red Pill, I’ve seen it’s a much bigger issue than I initially realized and so many gender inequalities can be explained by this phenomenon of women being viewed as sex objects and men viewed as success objects. It sounds simple on the surface, but it runs deep.

“Becoming a mom has been the most challenging and most rewarding experience of my life and I hope to carry what I learn into my future films”.

JB: Has your career changed as a result of The Red Pill, and do you have any new projects of any kind on the horizon, or is that all on hold for now due to caring for your baby?

CJ: My career has certainly changed in that I am less anonymous and my association with The Red Pill will always color any Google search on me. I can see that being a problem for when I want to interview someone for a new film and they may decline being interviewed based on me being a “controversial figure” now, at least in the eyes of mainstream media. I haven’t started interviewing for any new film though since I am currently a stay-at-home mom to my first child, a 10 month old baby boy. I do anticipate making another documentary though, but for now I’m trying to be present with my little one and grow as a person from this mind-blowing experience of being a mother and watching and guiding a baby who is just learning about the world. Becoming a mom has been the most challenging and most rewarding experience of my life and I hope to carry what I learn into my future films.

Final thoughts from JB
One thing I was very pleased to learn from Cassie was the influence of The Red Pill has been greater than I realised, more widespread than I realised, and is ongoing. Its success is not simply because it is a uniquely compelling and dramatic story, but is in part due to the hugely supportive reaction of the audience. This is a further story, a real-life David and Goliath epic of people power and the word-of-mouth hope and enthusiasm of those who actually saw the film, versus the cynical smear campaigns of activists and nay-sayers spread in the mainstream media. Maybe this all shows that that love is more powerful that hate, and if that’s the case, then maybe that’s the ultimate message that The Red Pill conveys.

Cassie Jaye is an American film director with Jaye Bird Productions. As an actor she felt typecast as “the cute girl-next-door who always died in horror films”. Experiences of sexual harassment led her to embrace feminism, though she famously later rejected feminism as a result of her experiences in The Red Pill. Cassie recently became a mother.

Read some inspiring quotes from Cassie Jaye’s TEDx Talk here.

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